Nextgen Wind Innovation in Australia and New Zealand

Right up with world trends, Australian Heinz Dahl, of Next Gen Wind, tells how Australian and New Zealand manufacturers are talking of huge, 10 Megawatt, Wind Turbines; Wind Turbines for cyclone-prone areas; floating Wind Turbines, and more.

Beyond Zero talks to Heinz Dahl of NextGen Wind

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Transcript

Melissa Crotty: You’re listening to Beyond Zero radio. And we’re quite privileged to have our next guest on the line. Heinz Dahl – he is the director of commercial operations and marketing at World Wind Energy Association. He is also the managing director of Next Gen Wind. And we’re lucky to have him back on the show again. And he’s going to tell us some, well, some pretty exciting news and developments.

Thank you Heinz for joining us.

Heinz Dahl: Yes, thank you very much for your kind welcome.

Matthew Wright: And now, to kick things off – I understand that you were in New Zealand recently speaking at a conference and you met with another past interviewee of ours, Geoff Henderson from Windflow?

Heinz Dahl: Yes, that's correct. Yes, I was invited to present a keynote address at the Clean Energy Summit and Expo in Auckland. And that was over a two-day period, the first and second of December. And there was something like about 60-odd delegates that arrived there, and they were all senior CEOs and managing directors of the various renewable energy interests in and around New Zealand.

And the conference worked very well, there were some very good ideas put forward and exchanges of ideas et cetera. And yes, I did have the pleasure of being invited to meet up with Geoff Henderson. Geoff and I go back a long way. I think our first meeting was when we decided to form the Australian Wind Energy Association back in the late 90s, and Geoff was doing likewise with Trevor Nash in New Zealand, trying to get things up and running.

And we collaborated a lot and Geoff was trying to promote his technologies – two-bladed upwind teetering hub machine, and, yeah so we’ve being toing and froing. And I had the privilege of being able to visit Geoff’s blade manufacturing facilities in Auckland and also their joint venture gearbox manufacturer in Auckland as well.

So, I'm very pleased to report that Geoff has now got, I think something like about 95 turbines operating in and around New Zealand with his 500 kilowatt two-bladed machine. And yes, very pleased to see the success that has come on Geoff. He's been in the game a long time and has been trying very hard to push his two-bladed technology into the marketplace and he’s been successful. And he's certainly looking to expand his horizons. He's currently finishing up a contract, I think with TrustPower in New Zealand. And then he's looking to see whether there is anything that Windflow can do here in Australia.

Matthew Wright: Now, you went to the manufacturing facilities. Now that always interests us. So could you tell us a bit about, sort of, how job rich they were and what sort of jobs and, you know, the hustle and bustle?

Heinz Dahl: Sure. Yeah, with the blade manufacturing business that Geoff has set up there, it was an ex-boatbuilding plant, so the technology – or the skilled workers they had there – could adapt very easily to manufacturing the blades. Geoff's process is similar to the many other blade manufacturers around the world. It's a vacuum impregnated fibreglass. And at the moment he's got two moulds, two sets of moulds, and he manufactures two blades a week, which is what the demand is for his turbine installation at the moment, but he can basically gear up to whatever number of blades that he needs to manufacture, by, you know, doubling his shift or tripling his shift and putting on extra moulds, and increasing his facilities.

So it's a very good base for his – it's a very clever operation - he's got very skilled workers there, and the quality of the blades coming out of the factory are very good, very good.

Matthew Wright: And, now the hydraulic pump gearbox, is that at the same facility, or has he got another site for that?

Heinz Dahl: No, there's another site which is little way away from the blade manufacturing site, and that's a joint venture with a New Zealand company called AH Gears Limited. And that's a joint venture between Windflow and AH Gears to manufacture the gearbox. And again, that was a very impressive site. Obviously he wouldn't show me too much detail about the makeup of the gearbox, but I certainly saw the componentry, the housings and the various gears et cetera, et cetera, and then the finished article too, of course.

Matthew Wright: Fantastic.

Heinz Dahl:  And they also have a very good testing facility, torque testing facility where they test each gearbox. I think they do it over a 48 hour period to make sure the gearbox is obviously functioning according to specifications.

Matthew Wright: So now – closer to home – we spoke to you recently, but you weren’t really able to tell us too much about Next Gen Wind's turbine. Like, are you able to explain, in whatever detail you feel comfortable, how that works and why you might have a play in the market ahead of what the conventional wisdom are doing?

Heinz Dahl: Yes, certainly. What we've done over the last several years is to basically perfect the electronics and the control systems of the two-bladed machine. Our machine is a two-bladed, but as with Geoff's machine, his is an up-bladed turbine, ours is a downwind turbine, which means that the blades are behind the tower.

And with ours, each blade is independently hinged onto the main shaft which means that the blade angle to the shaft varies as the rotation goes round, and also the wind speeds at, say, 100 metres is stronger than down at 50 metre level so the blade can independently hinge according to the wind speed and according to the power or energy extraction that we need to take from the wind.

We have had a dual control system in the past where the control system basically does the pitch angle, or controls the pitch angle of the blade independently, and then there's another control mechanism which control the flap angle of the blades. And we feared that the two control systems could give conflicting instructions to the blade, depending on which position and the rotation it is, and could cause some problems. So over the last 12 months we've worked very hard to have basically the one control system which controls both the flap angle and the pitch of the blade, which has been one of our problem areas in the past – or one of our areas that we may have some problems with in the future. But with this latest simulated design and testing program we put in place that we're able to come up with the single control system.

Matthew Wright: So is this...

Heinz Dahl: [Interrupts] And the...

Matthew Wright: Sorry.

Heinz Dahl: ...the most exciting thing is that we've agreed to list the company next year, and the listing will probably happen in Australia round about June - June July period – and we'll be preparing for that starting March of next year. And we have got international backing and initially we'll be listed here in Australia and then we'll look at other markets whereby we can list as well, like the second board (a separate stock exchange listing of small companies with relatively few shareholders and low capitalisation) and the London Exchange et cetera, so...

And we're very excited that the technology we have is scalable both ways. We can - we're looking at manufacturing ten megawatt machines for offshore development and also smaller sub-megawatt machines for laydown turbines which we can install into the cyclone prone Pacific Island areas and the Central Asian areas as well.

Matthew Wright: So, like the Vergnet Far Wind market? They’d be the only provider at the moment wouldn't they?

Heinz Dahl: Yes, yeah. We're able to put ours onto a floating platform. Because being downwind, the tower can flex and the frequency of the waves won't interfere with the generation of the thing.

And one of the things that we have been able to secure is a lightweight multi-pole direct drive generator. And the weight is about a third of the weight of the current direct drive generators in the marketplace. And with an increase in capacity, there's a linear increase in weight, whereas with the current direct drive generators, there's an exponential increase in weight with increasing capacity. So you've got a ceiling which you hit very quickly on a cost basis with the infrastructure that's required to support such a huge weight if you up into the two and three and five megawatt class machines.

Matthew Wright: So, I just have to recap for listeners, because I understood most of what you said but...[laughs].

Heinz Dahl: [Laughs]

Matthew Wright: ...the listeners might not. So when you're talking about downwind versus upwind, you meant that you have the tower, the incoming wind passes past the tower and then the blades are behind the tower rotating, is that right?

Heinz Dahl: Correct. Yes that's correct.

Matthew Wright: So you're actually talking downwind, and now the conventional wisdom at the moment for most turbines is to be upwind?

Heinz Dahl: That's correct.

Matthew Wright: So it means that the blades actually front - they're turning in front – of the turbine facing the incoming wind direction?

Heinz Dahl: Yes, that's right. Yes.

Matthew Wright: And when you talked about your multi-pole generator, you were talking about something like how a Toyota Prius works with its gearbox, or how Enercon does their turbines. Is that right?

Heinz Dahl: Yeah, the Enercon system, yes.

Matthew Wright: Yep. And so you're talking about a sort of a version of that that's lighter. Because one criticism of that is that very heavy hub weight or whatever.

Heinz Dahl: Exactly right, yeah. Top of tower weight is important. And the big issue with our machine is that because the blades are downwind, we don't need the rigid support structure to keep the rigid blades and the rigid tower to stop the blades from actually striking the tower, as you know, as would be in the upwind machines.

So therefore, we've been able to reduce dramatically the infrastructure cost, the capital costs. We've reduced the cost of one blade, and we're also able to reduce the weight of the individual blades because they don't need to be as stiff as the upwind blades. So all the way through we're saving money, and also with our new generator invention we'll get an extra 10 or 20 per cent efficiency gain through the generation of electricity too through the wind.

Matthew Wright: OK. So with aeroplanes - people might notice the really long wingspan on a 747 or something - you get a bit of flex. So what you're talking about is with the blades being in front of the tower, if they flex too much they'll actually strike the tower, but because you've got the blades behind the tower, they can flex up towards the hub - towards the centre ' as much as they want. You know, obviously they're not going to go all the way because they'd snap, but they don't - there’s no danger of them striking the tower, and therefore you don't have to invest as much in keeping them so rigid.

Heinz Dahl: That's right, yes. And B, the blades being independently hinged onto the main shaft means they can independently move. So if you have a rotor driver of, say, 100 metres, well obviously the wind at the top of the tower rotation would be a lot stronger than down at the base. And so, therefore, the blade can independently move itself away from the wind, reducing again the follow through stresses and forces that are applied.

Matthew Wright: Yeah, it sounds fantastic. Now, I mean, you met with Geoff, was there any interest from your company in licensing to them? Or were you just sort of generally catching up? Like, is the vision that Next Gen is competing with Goldwind in China and Vestas in Denmark and Enercon in Germany? Or is there - what's the approach at this stage?

Heinz Dahl: Ah yeah, Geoff and I, we had a brief talk about some collaborations, but for us it's still very early days. We did speak to the blade manufacturing facility there to say that we may - depending on how we structure ourselves here in Australia - you know, have some collaborative work that we can do together, in blade design and mould design - mould building. But as far as, sort of, any long-term collaboration, again it's still very early days. So we'll, you know, we'll sit back and we'll have a look at how successful we are going forward. And, because we'll still need to recruit the skills of the engineers, the various engineers that we need to take this to the commercial stage.

Matthew Wright: And, I've noticed recently in the aerospace sector, like with the A320s, the Airbus machines, and things like that, they've been looking at modifications to the wings. Sort of - I can't really describe it - but sort of tips and things like that and they're getting...

Heinz Dahl: [Interrupts] that's right...

Matthew Wright: ...three point six per cent extra performance? 

Heinz Dahl: Yes.

Matthew Wright: Does that sort of thing follow through to wind turbines?

Heinz Dahl: Certainly. Well we took our technology from the helicopter industry - the way we designed our rotor and our hub. And, yeah, we're certainly looking at other industries that - other industries' technologies that we can borrow and apply to the wind turbine industry.

Beause I'm, you know, I'm really surprised. I've been in the wind business now for nearly 15 years, and from an engineering point of view when I first had a look at the way that the three-bladed upwind machines were designed with a two-stage step-up gearbox and a high speed generator - I thought, you know, there's got to be a different way of doing things. You know, something a little less complicated, and a little bit simpler and easier to use, lower maintenance costs and that sort of thing. So that's what's led us to the stage we're at at the moment.

Matthew Wright: So would you say, with the exception of what Geoff's doing and Enercon perhaps, then it's sort of pretty conservative, and doing the same thing they were doing 20 years ago. Or...?

Heinz Dahl: Most certainly. I'd even say 40 years ago. [Laughs]

Matthew Wright: Yes [laughs].

Heinz Dahl: Because, certainly the design of the wind turbines today really haven't changed much, the only thing that’s happened is they've increased in size.

And with the increase in capacity, they've increased the size of the gearbox, increased the size of the towers, increased the size of the blades, increased the size of the generator; and there's basically been no new innovative type technology, with maybe the exception of, say, Clipper Wind with their multi-generator tower, and Enercon with their direct-drive generator as well. Other than that, there really hasn't been any innovative ideas bought into the industry, you know, in the last - or certainly the last 15 years that I have witnessed.

Matthew Wright: We're speaking to Heinz Dahl from Next Gen Wind which is a wind innovator and soon to be listed in Australia - so the chance to invest - for those people who are fortunate enough to be able to afford to do that sort of thing.

Heinz Dahl: [Laughs]

Matthew Wright: And be a part, hopefully, of a serious player in the future. And some great potential there if you want to do your due diligence and find out about how the current wind industry builds its wind turbines and what's proposed by Next Gen. 

So Heinz Dahl is from Victoria - so it's pretty exciting to have local innovation. But let's hope that there can be, at some point, local government support, because as we all know, if you're Australian and you do renewable energy, you usually get drip-fed, and...

Heinz Dahl: [Laughs] Yes.

Matthew Wright: ...it's a bit of a problem.

Heinz Dahl: If we do get fed at all.

Matthew Wright: Yeah, exactly so...

Heinz Dahl: ...we have spoken about the Victorian governments, the Tasmania governments, and also South Australian governments, as well as the federals, and there is some support available, but I think the - with the change of the federal government recently, or the last couple of years - Kevin Rudd and his government still need to settle down and legislate a lot of the things which they said they were going to do prior to being elected.

And there are some worrying times with the current ETS, (Emissions Trading Scheme). There's, [laughs], a scandal that's sort of happening at the moment and you know the way that Abbott and the Labor Party are sort of having their differences and what the ETS should consist of.

And also in Copenhagen, this week and next week, it will be very interesting to what the outcome is there and if there's internationally binding legislation that's put in place to force countries to lower their emissions. Who knows what’s going to happen, but it's very pleasing to see that Barack Obama's going to join the last phase of the Copenhagen meeting. And also, that China and India have pledged to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, which is very good.

And Australia being the highest emitter per capita, you know, we on the scale of things are very small, but per capita we're the worst offenders. So hopefully we can settle down and get some proper uniform regulations in place that basically drive, I guess, the heavy polluters into cleaning up their act a little bit over a period of time.

And when people say that, 'Oh yeah, but this is going to cost money, it's going to increase the price of electricity to everybody' and then you have a look at countries like Germany whose probably got the best renewable energy legislation in place with their feed-in tariffs et cetera - spreading right across all the renewable energy technologies - they’re not certainly, you know, behind the eight ball as far as being a competitive industrialised nation.

Matthew Wright: No. They're the leading competitive industrial...

Heinz Dahl: Quite right yes. And also look at Japan. I mean, you know, they've got the highest energy costs in the world and they've got the biggest automotive industry in the world. So [laughs] … I mean, it just doesn't make sense when people march those sort of arguments forward.

Matthew Wright: Not to mention their high-tech industry. Sony and Panasonic...

Heinz Dahl: [Interrupts] Exactly right. Yeah, the computers and - that's exactly right.

Matthew Wright: Yeah, so – I think the disadvantage of low energy prices is that you just throw the stuff away, you know.

Heinz Dahl: Yes. Yeah.

Matthew Wright: Now, the World Wind Energy Association, anything happening on that front Heinz?

Heinz Dahl: Well, we’ve been busy gearing up to make sure that the delegates who attend the Copenhagen meeting are briefed correctly. And so we've been fairly busy in making sure that the leading political figures of our member countries, you know, go there with the right attitude and with the right push, going forward.

And we're busy planning our next international conference, which will be held in Turkey, in Istanbul. And that will be in, I think, June of next year. So we're busy planning for that as well. And the following year we'll be holding the next International Wind Energy Conference in Egypt. So, our program, our strategy, is always to go to developing countries, especially, particularly with the wind energy developments. And we've had our conferences in Argentina, we’ve had one here in Australia back in 2005.

Matthew Wright: We are a developing country when it comes to renewables unfortunately [laughs].

Heinz Dahl: [Laughs] Yeah, certainly are, yes. Yeah, when you look at the figures from 2006 to 2007 where we had zero growth in wind it, you know, certainly doesn't make us look too good on the international scene. But last year we had a very good growth - I think we had something like about an 86 per cent growth rate in the installation of wind energy. And hopefully this year with the increase in the target, the mandated renewable energy target to 45,000 gigawatt hours by 2020, that certainly should stimulate a lot of investment.

Matthew Wright: Yeah, there is a problem with that though because solar hot water renewable energy certificates, which are given ten years in advance in lieu of the savings a solar hot water heater will create, are actually eating about 40 per cent into the REC market.

Heinz Dahl: Yes, yes. Yeah, this is one of the issues that I mentioned before that the Government's really got to get its act together and put a sustainable, investment-attracting legislation in place.

Matthew Wright: Now the, before - I want to speak a bit about Spain's efforts that I've experienced when I was on a trip there in September. But before that, since the Australian Wind Energy Association no longer exists and we haven’t really heard much coming out of the Clean Energy Council - though some of my colleagues like to call it the 'Coal Energy Council' now...

Heinz Dahl: [Laughs] Yes.

Matthew Wright: ...is there any talk amongst the wind sector of setting up another Wind Energy Association in Australia?

Heinz Dahl: Yes we have. I was a member of - when Auswind(Australian Wind Energy Association) went into the Clean Energy Council I remained with REGA, the Renewable Energy Generators Australia, and there was some talk initially of getting all the wind energy generators together again and having a single voice association which would represent the wind industry. But so far we've been fairly busy and sort of waiting for things to settle down on a federal basis and see exactly where Australia was going as far as the wind energy development was concerned. And so we've sort of kept a fairly low profile and that, but it's certainly been one of the items we've discussed and we bring it up on a regular basis to see, you know, see when the timing would be right.

Matthew Wright: There are similar things happening in both the PV (Photovoltiac) and the solar thermal sector. They're not feeling that they're being represented either.

Heinz Dahl: Yeah.

Matthew Wright: So...

Heinz Dahl: But what’s happened on the, if I just may, what's happened on the international basis is the International Renewable Energy Alliance, which basically consists of the four main technologies. The wind, of course, hydro, geothermal, biomass and solar - and wave power as well and the IRENA (International Renewable Energy Agency) as its called - or IREA - is representing all of the major renewable energies technologies, and basically coming forward with one voice. And this has been currently chaired by Peter Rae, the ex-senator from Tasmania, and he was the one that was instrumental in getting all the parties together.

So the IRENA Alliance members to date comprise of the International Solar Energy Society, the International Hydro Power Association, the International Geothermal Association, the World Wind Energy Association and the World Bio Energy Association. So those five associations are all working together to ensure that the renewable energy industry has one strong voice into the various governments around the world.

Matthew Wright: Now while we're on that, I think I wanted to know this previously but I never quite got the answer but, what's the difference between the Global Wind Energy Council and the World Wind Energy Association?

Heinz Dahl: Yeah, yeah. The Global Wind Energy Council, or GLEC as we call it, they were formed basically with an alliance between the major manufacturers in Europe. And so it's a representative group consisting, or comprising, of all the major manufacturers in Europe, the Enercons, the Vestas, and the Suzlons and Acciona as well, they're all members. Whereas the World Wind Energy Association was basically formed to help the developing and underdeveloped countries have a renewable energy industry put in place.

So we go into a country, or when they ask us to come into a country, we then sort of give them all the bases they need to have as far as their legislation, their advice to the governments. In fact, the governments call us in and we give them advice on how to set up their legislation, or the options they have available, and then we go and introduce the various member countries into the network; into the manufacturers, into the developers, into the financial circle, into the legal circles, into the governmental circles, basically to help all of the underdeveloped and developing nations to get into, in our case, wind.

Matthew Wright: Fantastic, it sounds like a great reason to exist.

Heinz Dahl: We have currently over 500 members now, and it comprises of I think about 86 or 87 countries that are members now. 

Matthew Wright: That's fantastic. Now...

Heinz Dahl: ...and most of those are obviously developing nations, but there are countries like say, Germany, and the German Government certainly support the World Wind Energy Association, and Australia as well and New Zealand. I don’t think, no New Zealand hasn’t joined yet, but certainly Australia is a member. And Canada is. So we’re advancing the cause of wind in all the developing countries that we can.

Matthew Wright: Yeah. Fantastic, fantastic job. It's the kind of thing I'd like to do.

Heinz Dahl: [Laughs] Yeah. It is fun. It's hard work sometimes, but it is fun. And, you know, China certainly was one of our success stories. We helped the Chinese Wind Energy Association basically set up the structural part of their organisation over there. And also we advised the association on the legislation which they should present to the federal government and also regional governments as well.

Matthew Wright: Now, just before we wrap up. Now, I just got back from Spain and they've announced for their feed-in tariff they're going to get 2440 megawatts of solar thermal with storage, so that's despatchable solar... 

Heinz Dahl: Yes.

Matthew Wright: ...and 6000 megawatts of wind by 2013, so it's in the next three years they're going to bring online 2000 megawatts a year. Now, how is it that they manage to spend $24 billion on solar and $12 billion on wind in the next three years and we manage next to nothing?

Heinz Dahl: Yes. It's an excellent question, yeah. I think it's got a lot to do with the legislation that's in place. Under MRET you know, we've really got to fight for a power purchase agreement with the retailers and the distributors and, at best, we get, say, something like about $35 to maybe $40 if we're lucky per megawatt hour, and through MRET, with the RECs - the RECs are market tradeable as you know – and currently I think they're trading around about 26, but the type of income that the general wind industry here in Australia requires to break even is about $70 to $75 per megawatt hour.

So if we get, say, maximum 40 out of the retailers and distributors, we certainly need, you know, 35 to 40 out of RECs and if RECs falls below the $35 mark you're basically trading a loss. And so therefore the international investment houses look at this and saying, 'Oh, our returns are better in Germany' where I think they currently get in some of the sites over there 93 Euro dollars per megawatt hour, which is about 160 Australian dollars. And so it's more than double what we get here. And same in Spain, you know, same with other countries.

I think there's 40-odd countries in there with feed-in tariffs. And Australia is, you know, Australia is one of those countries that just won't look at it. You know, they reckon, we think the cost of energy is going to get too high and it's going to make us uncompetitive in an international manufacturing arena. 

Matthew Wright: Now just quickly, because we've virtually run out of time.

Heinz Dahl: OK.

Matthew Wright: Dong Fang Energy and Gold Wind in China, I've been reading a lot of reports, they might not be as advanced as the Vestas technology, I know we're talking about the major manufacturers using the same technology for 40 years...

Heinz Dahl: Yes.

Matthew Wright: ...but they're talking about their turbines being half the price of what's in the West. Can you just in one minute or so tell us about that?

Heinz Dahl: I don't think it's, I think they are slightly cheaper because, because of the lower labour costs over there where they're able to buy their componentry like generators and gearboxes et cetera, cheaper than people, say, in Germany and the US can do. And so there is a degree of difference in the price, but nowhere near half. I mean their cost of power, I know that their cost of power is still on par with what we, you know, what we generate here in Australia, and certainly what they do in Europe. 

And, just on China, they’re, you know, they've got some very, very ambitious targets. I think I heard figures of 10 and 20 gigawatts per annum for the next ten years, but they're slowly getting to the stage where they need to spend, you know, a few billion or hundreds of billions of dollars on upgrading the infrastructure to basically carry the energy from the generation source to the load centres. So, you know, they're going to come up with a fairly serious problem in the next couple of years, which they'll need to resolve if they want to grow at that sort of rate.

Matthew Wright: Alright. Fantastic. Thanks...
 

Heinz Dahl: [Interrupts] ...I think also that the certification process in China is nowhere near as rigid as it is outside of China, say in Europe. And I think they're slowly starting to, and this is one of the reasons why they're, why the cost of the units are a little bit cheaper than the European ones: another factor that contribute to their cheaper cost.

Matthew Wright: Look, we'll have to wind it up Heinz. Well really appreciate speaking to you. Thanks.

Heinz Dahl: Not at all. Thank you.

Matthew Wright: And that's Heinz Dahl from Next Gen Wind and you can check them out at www.nextgenwind.com. And if you want to re-listen to this very interesting radio interview we'll have that podcast on the 3CR, and on the Beyond Zero Emissions, websites. So its nextgenwind.com and the announcement we heard today is that they will be listing, so they could become the next best Vestas, and this is an industry worth - I probably should have got the figure off Heinz - but it's worth tens of billions of dollars a year, so fantastic.